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Fitting trousers on an apple shape
I'm very apple shaped with thin legs and am having great difficulty getting trousers to fit.
Everything is fine except that they continually slide down a bit after sitting. If I put a drawstring in then things are better, or if I elasticate the back waist.
What I'd really like, though, is to resolve this issue so I can just have a pair of trousers with a normal waistband.
Does anyone have any thoughts, please?
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(post #29168, reply #1 of 55)
Have you seen any "maternity" trouser patterns? I'm not sure how many are out there now because I have no need for them, but I remember they used to have some good and/or interesting ways of getting around that rounded tummy with-out compromising a slim fit in the legs.
(post #29168, reply #2 of 55)
Thank you. I hadn't thought of it but shall certainly take a look.
(post #29168, reply #3 of 55)
One way to deal with a full tummy (maternity or maturity) is to make the center front seam angle outward (forward) above the curve of the crotch seam. Usually, it is a straight, vertical line, but if you lean it outward 1/2-1" or so, you give space for a rounded belly.
If you are full all the way around, you do the same for the center back and the side seams. You may also need to raise the waistline and/or curve it up over the fullest part of the tummy (center front). You leave the pants legs alone, but you add fullness above the crotch line, where you need it.
The final pattern won't look like a standard pants pattern, but it will fit better. Try it in muslin or an inexpensive fabric, cutting 1-2" seam allowances and machine basting until you get the shape that works for you.
(post #29168, reply #4 of 55)
Thanks for this. It makes sense and I had thought that maybe raising the waistline would be effective, but rounding the seam at the front also sounds like a great idea.
I shall definitely give this a go.
(post #29168, reply #5 of 55)
This is what I remembered when I suggested maternity patterns, but I do not remember regular waistbands as opposed to elastic. If one is not too big around the tummy I can't imagine it being that difficult or unattractive to put a zipper in. I googled some maternity patterns and all I could see was - knit inserts to take care of the bulge - and that was all! We all get so used to how patterns are "supposed" to look that it's hard to be objective and "make it fit". I admire designers who can come up with the solutions.
There is a new book out by Kathleen Cheetham of Petite Plus Patterns. It includes a few patterns and she addresses the apple shape quite well. I purchased the book, but have not gotten around to making a muslin or sample so have no first hand experience about how well it works, but I have used her patterns before and have been happy with the results.
http://petitepluspatterns.com/
(post #29168, reply #6 of 55)
I'm ordering the book tonight. Thanks for the tip.
I really appreciate your help with this. Thanks so much.
(post #29168, reply #7 of 55)
Your welcome. Hope it works for you.
(post #29168, reply #8 of 55)
I too am apple shape, with belly and balloon rear. My hips (on the side) are straight below the high hip bone, and my legs are slim. I've been experimenting with fitting and have an idea to offer, which worked for me.
Try draping a slim pant fitting shell using gingham fabric.
Start with a pattern and clean pattern paper. Trace seamline for both the front and back crotch curves, but straight-grain above the curve onto the clean paper. Note: if you know you need extra length on front and/or back crotch extension, add that to the curve. Also, if you want to experiment with angling CF or CB outward above the curve as someone suggested, draw that now.
Now put away that commercial pattern; you'll be working with your own pattern from this point forward.
Draw vertical (straight-grain) inseams below the crotch curves. Then draw vertical straight-grain sideseams positioned for the widest part of the front and of the back (plus 1/2" ease on each).
Measure inseam from floor to crotch, and use that to determine where to draw a horizontal line for the bottom of the leg (at floor).
Measure your length from waist to floor at several positions around your body: center front, front dart area, side seam, back dart area and center back. Note which is the longest length, then measure up from the floor line at the sideseam for that longest length and draw a horizontal line on both front and back, for approximate waist seam.
Now add 2" seam allowance for front and back inseams and sideseams, and 2" seam allowance at waist. Add 5/8" seam allowance through crotch curves and 1" seam allowance above crotch curves for center front and back. Mark grain lines on front and back.
Cut out these pieces from the gingham, paying attention to grain. Baste on temporary front and back crotch to waist, and sideseams from waist to crotch depth. Baste inseams only about an inch each side of the crotch seam, to hold the crotch together. The legs will not be connected below the crotch at this point.
Try on, and adjust crotch seams as necessary. You can also play with the CF and/or CB positioning (tilt forward) for big belly or balloon butt. Once you get the crotch to fit (pay attention to drag lines), then fit a length of elastic around waist and tug pant as needed so that vertical gingham lines hang vertical all around, and horizontal gingham lines are perfectly horizontal. Mark the bottom of the elastic for the waist seam.
Now the hard part, and it helps to have a friend help. Mark the center of the knee on front and back with a pin (this will be the crease line position). Then determine the position of the inseam first, so that the verticals and horizontals remain straight, the knee center remains centered, and the inseam bisects the leg at crotch, knee and ankle. Do this with pins, then baste.
Then do the same with the side seam, ensuring that it bisects the leg at waist, hip, knee and ankle.
Take off pant, and line up inseam with sideseam of each leg from floor to knee. Your knee-center should lie on the crease lines when the seams are lined up, and the creaselines should be on-grain from knee to floor. If they are not perfectly positioned and on-grain, you will need to adjust inseam and sideseam.
When you feel good about leg fit, trim all seam allowances to 1", except through crotch curve, which will be 1/4" seam allowance. Cut off at hemline, or leave 1" extra just in case.
Try on again and refine seams as needed. Play with center front and back, both on grain and tilted (forward or backward) to get the best fit. Mark darts and baste, then refine.
Now transfer all seamlines including darts to your pattern, keeping grain line on-grain. Draw 1" seam allowances on all seams except 5/8" on center front and back, including crotch curves, and 1 1/2 " hem allowance. Cut this out of muslin or other fitting fabric and baste, then refine, and transfer all changes to your pattern.
When I did this, I learned some interesting things. You will have different learnings depending upon your individual body.
1. I didn't need much crotch extension on front, but I needed a fair amount on back.
2. My CF was best just slightly off-grain (about 1/4" off at waist, tilted toward sideseam).
3. My CB was also best off-grain (about 3/4" off at waist, tilted toward sideseam)
4. I had the longest waist-to-floor measurement in the area of the back darts, not at the CB which one would expect for a big butt.
5. I only needed one narrow and short front dart, but got best fit with 3 deeper darts in back.
6. My front was widest at tummy line (3" below waist), but my back was widest at full-buttock line (6 1/2 " below waist).
This shell is fitted as a slim pant. Not tight, but not loose like trousers. If you want to use this shell to make wider legs, add a front trouser pleat, or to make skin-tight jeans, it is possible, but you need to know some basics about moving darts, etc.. There are several good articles in Threads about this.
(post #29168, reply #9 of 55)
Thank you so much for this information. I really do appreciate you taking the time to detail this.
I've been reading lots of stuff and slowly coming to the conclusion that I need to go right back to the drawing board and your experience definitely confirms this.
I sadly don't have much of a butt. Mine is flat which I've almost conquered by taking quite a big amount out of the trouser back.
Do you find that now you don't have the problems with trousers slipping down as you wear them? And do you make trousers slightly higher waisted?
(post #29168, reply #10 of 55)
Yes. slacks and trousers no longer slip down in the back. Well, maybe just a tad, but I think that's normal, you know, less than 1/2". Certainly not low enough to bother me.
Because of my balloon buttocks, I need quite a long crotch extension on the back, and also the back is 2" wider than the front. so if you have the opposite problem, you probably need less crotch extension, and take some of the width out of the back, from from waist to knee (at least). This is done simply by making a vertical fold between center back and the dart. Then if more width is needed at the waist, you add it at the side seam and/or make darts smaller.
I'm attaching a sketch I did of my original fitting gingham, with the draped seam lines imposed on top.
(post #29168, reply #11 of 55)
When you see it in graphic form like that it's no wonder that neither RTW or commercial patterns fit!
I'm sold. As soon as I can I'm going to give this a go and see what I can come up with.
Again, a million thanks for taking the time to share this with me. I really am most grateful.
x
(post #29168, reply #12 of 55)
You're welcome. I hope it works for you. Let me know how it goes. You can email me directly if you wish, at cmhaug4(at)earthlink.net (note that I disguised the email to protect me from spam).
(post #29168, reply #13 of 55)
I forgot to mention a few things in the draping instructions.
1. When you cut your first-fit pattern (the one you fit in gingham) out of muslin, mark the horizontal hip line and knee lines; also mark the vertical crease/grain line on the front from floor to dart area, and the crease/grain line on lower back leg (from floor to knee), then extend as grain line to the hip. If you're using disposable fabric, do this with a marker. If not disposable, mark with yarn or something else you can easily see and later remove. You will need these lines for fine fitting.
I used some cheap twill for my 'muslin.' I chose that because its weight was similar to what I planned to use for the slacks. I considered it a disposable fabric, but marked my lines with bright yarn.
2. To check verticals, use a plumb line (piece of string as long as from your waist to floor, with something heavy tied at the bottom). If you've got good eyes, you can eyeball the horizontals; otherwise measure to each line from floor at several places.
3. when drawing seam lines at junctions, it's important for the seams to meet at a right angle, except for design elements. This is especially important where inseam meets crotch curve. Also important where sideseam meets waist; however I was unable to do that on my pattern because of the steep angle of the waist approaching the sideseam on the back. But I came as close to a right angle as I could.
(post #29168, reply #14 of 55)
Dear Cat ~
Beautiful instructions for "starting from scratch" - which may ultimately be easier than fiddling endlessly with commercial patterns. Thank you!!
A question about the illustration ~ I see that the front and back crotch points don't seem to line up at the inseam. Is that an artifact of the drawing program? If not, what do you do to accommodate the difference in front and back side lengths?
Thanks again, and Bright Blessings!
Kharmin
(post #29168, reply #15 of 55)
Well, that not-lining-up is because of a few things:
- First, the back inseam is at more of a slant than the front inseam, so is actually longer than you think -you know, the hypotenuse of the triangle thing.
- Another reason is that between the crotch and the notch that is about half way to the knee, is supposed to be shorter (by about 1/2 inch) than the same space on the front, so that the front is eased into the back. This allows for give in the front when walking.
- And perhaps another reason is that the bottom of the back crotch curve is typically 1/2 inch lower than the tip of the front crotch curve; this allows for the back pant to cup under the buttock, avoiding bagginess there. That's a European fitting precept, I believe.
And, of course, some of the difference is due to the crudeness of the drawing software that I used.
(post #29168, reply #16 of 55)
Thank you again for these detailed instructions. I'm very excited to get going with this. So much so, that I've finally got around to finishing a pair of curtains that have been waiting around for a while, just so I can clear the table to make a start on drafting these trousers.
I'm very excited to have a block for trousers so I can make multiple pairs that finally fit, and can have fun playing around with design.
(post #29168, reply #17 of 55)
I've already used my block to make slacks, trousers with front pleat, slim-leg jeans and boot cut jeans. And they all fit great. Next up: stove-pipe leg pant using linen fabric for summer cool.
I put all my draping instructions, plus the sketch, in a pdf file. I included info added during this discussion, and also the link to this thread in the Threads discussion forum. so it's all in one place. See attached file.
I want to give credit to Donna Brandt, a long-time participant in the Threads discussion, for starting me on my draping journey. She advocates keeping CF and CB on-grain. While my finished pant does not have these perfectly on-grain, I started out with them on-grain and only refined the slant toward the end of the process. I found this was great advice.
Edited 11/13 to delete the pdf attachment. A newer version is attached to a later item in this thread: 10226.24 [NOTE: this has been further updated - see below; I plan to delete this interim version.
Edited 11/25 to add newer version - see 10226.51
Edited 11/13/2009 1:42 pm ET by cat42 <!-- CAT4212 -->
Edited 11/13/2009 1:43 pm ET by cat42 <!-- CAT4212 -->
Edited 11/25/2009 2:45 pm ET by cat42
(post #29168, reply #18 of 55)
You are not only a wiz at pants making and fitting but also computers.
I have printed many discussions from this board and usually have to copy entire thread then past into word document. How did you manipulate putting your document into the page you did that provided the printer icon, etc. at the top of the page?
Are you perhaps an engineer by training?
I have printed your other posts on pants when Donna was helping you a few years ago and have used them many time for my own alterations. You provide excellent drawings with explicit directions.
I have read many posts on other boards that make me scratch my head. The authors of these posts seem to not review/edit their posts and leave out important information. Your information is terrific.
Thank you so much for taking the time to do this for all of us struggling to make pants.
Can I assume that you were able to adjust the width of your pant leg by trial and error to get the size you wanted? The block you started with is quite large on both pattern pieces but the interior patterns are quite slim. Is this slimmer width determined by the hem measurement you decided you wanted on the front and back plus the width of the front and back knee?
Once again, nicely done!
Woggy
(post #29168, reply #19 of 55)
Thankyou so much for your kind support. I remember your contributions when Donna and I were working though this.
Yes, I'm an engineer (telephone), retired. And I have a very logical-thinking mind, I guess. And I love to draw. The last years of my career I was also a technical writer for our IT department.
How I did the pdf:
-- Well, I copied the entire text of my post after it was published, including the header (user names, date and thread number). then pasted into a word processing program like Word. Then I played with the formatting to add the step numbers, etc.
-- Then as more information was added in subsequent posts, I copied and pasted into the document where appropriate.
-- For the drawing I used a drawing program like Visio, and saved the file as a tiff. Then I uploaded the tiff file into the document. When I had the document just like I wanted it, I exported it ('print' in Word) as a pdf file.
Ok, now for the draping questions:
Yes, I used trial and error to get the legs just right. I didn't have someone to help me so it was pin, try on, repin, try on, etc. abut 50 times before I got it right.
The reason I started out with the legs so wide is because I wanted to be sure I had enough fabric in case my legs draped really weird. I'm severely knock-kneed, with my upper thighs touching from crotch to knee, and then my lower leg angling out sharply. For draping, I needed enough width on the upper leg at the inseam, and enough width on the lower leg at the sideseam. So I just cut those on the grain.
Actually, for most draping projects, you start out with a wide rectangle, and end up with a lot of excess fabric after fitting. If you know your body really well, you could trim off some of that excess when you cut the first time, but I highly recommend starting with the rectangles (with the crotch curve cut out of one corner). That way, you don't get any surprises for which you don't have enough fabric.
The same is true for the length. Cut both front and back rectangles the same length, the length of the longest vertical measurement on your body, following your curves. You might even add an extra inch at the top, because when you put the elastic around your waist, extra fabric above the elastic will keep it from pulling out from the bottom of the elastic.
Yes, the slimmer width of the leg was determined in large part by the desired width at the hem. Farther up the leg, it was determined by desired ease, and also desire to have smooth seamline transitions (from inward to outward curves and straight sections).
Another consideration about width is that typically, the back leg is 1" wider than the front leg (1/2" wider on sideseam side, and 1/2" wider on inseam side), from hem to knee. And it continues to be wider all the way up to the hip, tho it may be more or less than 1" wider, depending on your figure. Above the hip, not considering darts, it is also wider than the front. After the darts are made, the front and back should be about the same width at the waist, for most figures (a very large apple would be an exception).
(post #29168, reply #20 of 55)
Brilliant!
Thank you so much for your clear and concise answers ~ to the fitting questions AND the computer questions. I am definitely replacing my "saved-to-a-Word-doc-and-manipulated" copy of this HowTo with yours!
Bright Blessings ~ Kharmin
(post #29168, reply #21 of 55)
Hi Cat
Can I just say that in a world such as ours where we are surrounded by people who are just wrapped up in their own problems, it is a joy to know that out there are kind, generous and charming people who are happy to share their skills and knowledge with others.
Please know that your generosity is appreciated.
Have a lovely weekend.
PS
(post #29168, reply #22 of 55)
Thanks for giving more detail. I don't have a sewing buddy so it is nice to know that you were successful by yourself.
I am working on getting the waist to hip depth correct. I have scoliosis and never noticed how much higher my right hip has become. I think all these years of looking at pictures of low rise pants on models made it difficult for me to visualize where my waist really is. It is much higher than thought.
Back to the drawing board!
Woggy
(post #29168, reply #23 of 55)
Since discussion has continued, I updated the pdf to add the new info. Plus I clarified a few things, and updated the sketch. See new attachment. (I deleted the earlier version of this pdf file).
You all are too kind. I enjoy doing this. I would like to hear from those who try this, and what learnings you had along the way.
Cat
Edited 11/13/2009 1:43 pm ET by cat42 <!-- CAT4212 -->
Edited 11/25/2009: This version of pdf is old and has been deleted. Please see latest version at 10226.51.
Edited 11/25/2009 2:48 pm ET by cat42 <!-- CAT4212 -->
Edited 11/25/2009 2:49 pm ET by cat42
(post #29168, reply #24 of 55)
I, too, have downloaded and printed the pdf file... I have always wondered about that slanted back seam and hope now I can come up with a better sloper. Being an engineer has got to have given you lots of insight into covering a round ball.
(post #29168, reply #25 of 55)
You & I must be twins - we seem to have the exact same shape - including the knock knees. About the knock knees, have you ever tried the idea of cutting off the pattern at the knee & moving the lower part sideways 1/2" to follow the leg shape? You then even off the leg. I've always found the slim leg style to be more uncomfortable to wear & that it makes my knock knees even more obvious, as well as it makes my torso look even bigger, as my legs are fairly slim, too. Is this slim legged style more suitable for you?
Another question: How are you changing the grain in the bum area to have the angled CB, as the grain is straight up the leg, & you started with a straight grain CB. It looks in your drawing like the grain in the bum area is now on an angle.
Thanks so much for the tutorial, which I printed off & will refer to often.
Gloria
(post #29168, reply #27 of 55)
I have slightly knock knees and have used the cutting and sliding at the knee and it does make a difference. I can really recommend it.
(post #29168, reply #30 of 55)
Which way did you slide the bottom part of the pattern - to the outside or the inside of the knee? Cat42 said that she tried it both ways & it didn't work for her. I have never tried it, but I must try something to get a good fit. Probably a muslin, trying it both ways, eh?
(post #29168, reply #32 of 55)
I moved the lower leg out. Only about 1/4 inch but it does make a difference for me. I'm not very knock kneed but I do pronate slightly (feet pivot inwards) so this is enough to cause problems without the adjustment.
A muslin is definitely the way. Whenever I skip the muslin step on any garment it all goes horribly wrong!
(post #29168, reply #36 of 55)
Thanks for your comment - so it's outward to move it. I think I'd probably need a half inch, as mine are very pronounced. I'll definitely be doing a muslin on this one.
Gloria
(post #29168, reply #35 of 55)
I just want to clarify: The reason sliding the lower leg of the pattern in/out didn't work for me was because I had a long drag line from my high hip near the waist to the inside of my knee. Sliding the leg did not get rid of the drag line.
When I draped the pattern and learned that I have to add vertical length at the middle of the waist (dart area) because of my high hip, that solved the drag line. In other words, the drag line was caused primarily by the high hip, not the knock knee.
I bet if I took a commercial pattern, modified the waist for high hip, and then practiced moving the lower leg in/out, I'd find that one of those movements helps. But I don't need to do that because my draped pattern is perfect in the way it fits my knock knee. I'll never use a commercial pattern again, except perhaps to copy its design details. But I'll always use my draped sloper for the basic fit.